Thursday, February 28, 2008

Obama Calls Vote to Keep Schiavo Alive His Biggest Mistake

Not surprising from a consistently pro-death candidate like Obama: he considers one of the few good things he's ever done to be his 'biggest mistake'.


Kim said...

And then to admit such a thing in public! Scandalous! How does he sleep at night?

JP said...

Scandalous indeed! That is why I throw my hands up when folks vote for pro-death candidates who are pro deathy penalty and pro war

Tim A. Troutman said...

The uniqueness of Obama's issue is that abortion is never justifiable. The other two can be.

JP said...


I know in times past we have discussed this. I appreciate, strongly, your view. I share the your view on abortion. For me, the death penalty is never justifiable. It stands, I believe, in opposite directions on the character of Jesus. War, you are correct, its not a black and white issue, but we both know what Jesus had to say about our enemies.

Tim A. Troutman said...

JP - I see where you're coming from. Don't get me wrong - I'm not pro-death penalty. I'm just concerned that we carefully prioritize our beliefs on these issues.

I could vote for a president if he supported the death penalty but I could never vote for one who supported abortion. I'd rather see 100 criminals executed than to see one innocent baby aborted. But in reality, we only have a few executions each year - even while it being legal. It usually makes headlines when someone is executed.

Whereas we're killing millions of babies each year. I say let's get the basics right first, then we can let these others become a bigger issue.

The death penalty is reflective (and is consistent) with God's attribute of justice. We see this in the Old Testament "an eye for an eye" and God Himself orders the death penalty over and over.

But you are right - Jesus came to fulfill and perfect the Law. His Law is one of mercy. It doesn't destroy the justice of the Old Testament - but trumps it. God's mercy is infinite.

I agree with you that we should work to imitate that mercy in all that we do not only in our personal lives but in the public square - i.e. shunning the death penalty and avoiding war at all costs.

------- Theo ------- said...

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil.

May God have mercy on me.

Ma Beck said...

It's not that the death penalty isn't wrong. It almost always is - and certainly always is in the US, where we have supermax prisons to keep murderers locked up with no chance of escape.

It's not that unjust wars aren't wrong - they most certainly are.

It's that abortion kills 4000 babies in THIS COUNTRY ALONE every single day.
No other attack against human dignity even comes close to that. Even China "only" executes 3000 people A YEAR.

NO modern war is killing 4000 people a day. We haven't lost 4000 soldiers in Iraq yet, I don't believe.

Sheer numbers make abortion the most pressing, desperate, must-be-stopped issue of our day. Everything else, logically, must take second place until we can stop the act which has killed 50,000,000 INNONCENT Americans since 1973, Americans who can't hire defense attorneys, or take cover in a bomb shelter, or even kneel to pray as they are killed.

Anonymous said...

"It's not that the death penalty isn't wrong. It almost always is - and certainly always is in the US, where we have supermax prisons to keep murderers locked up with no chance of escape."

Ma Beck,
The reasoning behind the death penalty is twofold: punitive and protective. While it may be true that escape from a U.S. prison is difficult (but not impossible), inmates can still effect their will from within prison walls. I work in corrections and can tell you that many crimes, including murder,are orchestrated by criminals behind bars. Your position echos that of JPII but it is naive. However, I can also say that the criminal justice system cannot be trusted. Having also worked as a court officer, I have seen the innocent wrongly convicted and the guilty allowed to go free. Personally, I am torn on the death penalty issue. gravey.

Ma Beck said...


My belief of the death penalty is straight out of the catechism, which was written by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. If you think my beliefs are "naive", then you think his beliefs are naive.

CCC 2267: "Assuming the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been *fully determined*
the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, *if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.*
IF however, nonlethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means....

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitively taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity ARE VERY RARE, IF NOT PRACTICALLY NONEXISTENT."

The fact that the justice system is flawed and murderers go free is completely irrelevant. It is not the fault of the guilty party that American justice sucks. It is not the fault of the murderers of this country that the juries and judges of this country sometimes seem to lack a conscience.

My husband is an ex cop and I am a police dispatcher. And I live in Chicago. And my aunt was stabbed to death two years ago by a drugged out maniac. I am fairly familiar with the poor job society does with punishing murderers with life in prison with no parole.

I cannot believe that after so many years of having CCC 2267, we are still debating this.

(If you are not Catholic, I apologize. This doesn't apply to you and I wouldn't expect your views to mirror those of the Magisterium.)

Tim A. Troutman said...

I can see what both of you are saying . This is a very tough issue. My problem is when people start going beyond the words of the catechism and disallowing capital punishment in ANY circumstance whereas the punishment is explicitly allowed in at least some instances.

I have no problem with someone being against the death penalty - I am also for the most part. I just have a real problem with exhaustively proscribing it.

Two big reasons that I have such a problem is the utterly unanimous support of it by the Church for 1900 years of Church history. I'm suspicious of anything that only popped up in the 20th century and is believed more unanimously by the Church's enemies than the Church's faithful.

The other reason is that we simply know beyond any shadow of a doubt that the death penalty does in fact prevent murder. So while, as the catechism alludes to, there may be another method that can just as effectively protect innocent life - but we haven't found it yet.

I think both of you have valid points and we need to proceed extremely cautiously on this issue. Human life - even that of a criminal, ought to be treated with the utmost sanctity.

Peace in Christ

Anonymous said...

"The fact that the justice system is flawed and murderers go free is completely irrelevant."

Ma Beck,
Allow me to re-phrase your statement: The fact that the justice system is flawed and innocent people are put to death is completely relevant. That is the point.

Regarding the CCC:
Your opinion that the death penalty is "certainly always" wrong in the U.S. is just that... an opinion. The debate will continue because the Catholic Church allows for the death penalty.

Whether I am Catholic or not, the teachings of the Catholic Church apply to all, for truths apply to all. gravey.