Friday, July 25, 2008

If Heretics Like Kung Hate Him...

These days I have more and more respect for President Bush. When the heretic Hans Kung came out and blasted him (and Pope Benedict XVI), I feel vindicated for my respect. No, I haven't agreed with everything that Bush did, I was initially against the war in Iraq for the record. But say whatever you like about President Bush, he is a man of courage in an age of cowards. And the cowardly don't like that.


Joseph said...

Good for Bush, making all the right enemies. Say what you want about him, he's been the last bastion of hope in American politics against abortion, and he's proven it with action.

bilbannon said...

Check Fr. Z on his use of words. Kung may be a heretic in God's eyes but I believe Rome only dechaired him from teaching Catholic doctrine. In other words, Rome has not yet brought him up on heresy charges so that formally or canonically Kung is not a heretic by Church fiat. Which means that Fr. Z is speaking privately as to his opinion but that is not wise for a priest to do since many see him as representing the Church. He also uses Rahner's name perjoratively and again not only was Rahner not disciplined by Rome in his last decades, but he was the editor of the Enchiridion Symbolorum which is a compendium of what is dogma and what is not. And Archbishop Amato stated of Rahner at the Rahner Conference in the Lateran just a few years ago that Rahner was "an orthodox theologian". Fr.Z then is again speaking personally and yet many may see him as representing the Church and he does not in such comments. Rahner held that hell might be empty not in the universalist sense but in the sense of everyone perhaps repenting at the end. I think that incorrect due to at least Judas and check Herod's ominous death in Acts 12 but if Rahner is incorrect so was John Paul who stated a similar opinion as did Benedict when younger.

Tim A. Troutman said...

Why Kung is not formally excommunicated is beyond me. You're right - he was just removed from his teaching office. But that's all beside the point, he is in manifest error on several large issues which are infallibly taught whether he's a formal heretic or not, he has the heart of one and many formal heretics were many times more orthodox than Kung ever dreamed of being.

I don't know about Rahner's beliefs here so I can't comment on those but I hope Hell is completely empty just like every Catholic should.

But returning to the point of the post - if Kung hates him, he's doing something right.

bilbannon said...

No... parentheically (and I'll leave)...Catholics are not bound to hope hell is empty since Christ repeatedly indicated the opposite about Judas... "but woe unto him through whom the son of man is betrayed for it were better for that man had he not been born" His Father in prayer, Christ said: "those whom thou gavest me I guarded and not one of them perished except the son of perdition" (an example of the prophetic past perfect which is in Isaiah also and means this will come about for Judas had not yet sinned when Christ said it....Acts also notes of him..."who fell away to go to his own place." And there are numerous people in the OT who died ominously not peacefully with loved ones...1Sa 15:33 "And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal." Samuel did this as prophet and not as private citizen and he did it because Saul would not do it as ordered by God whence the kingship of Israel was taken away from Saul.

The truth is that modern Catholic Popes and theologians are in the downswing of a pendulum which is the opposite of saints like Aquinas who noted that the majority go to hell. That Aquinas view was extreme and now we are at the other extreme of the one is there in hell....despite what Christ said about Judas. The trick is to get outside the pendulum and Christ's words lead us to that as do the book of Revelation which says that there are very many in Heaven:

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The truth is between and above the extremes.

Tim Troutman said...

Well I'll keep that in mind in case you ever become an authoritative source on Catholic doctrine.

But I don't recall using the word "bound", I said "should" and I can't really sympathize with anyone who doesn't hope hell is empty or at least nearly empty.

God has a will, we have hope. God is not willing that any should perish and we hope no one does. I hope no one gets murdered tomorrow as all Catholics should. So using the same logic you just used, you would interpret me saying "All Catholics are bound to believe that no one is going to be murdered tomorrow".

bilbannon said...

There are no authoritative sources of Catholic doctrine on St. Blogs which does not include the Vatican site which is simply documents; even those run by priests are still only as good as the priest himself is. But the Vatican sanctions no one on St. Blogs but should at least appoint a dogmatic theologian from one of the Roman schools to tour and correct all the blogs. I had 8 years of Catholic theology from priests and brothers on top of 8 years of nuns as catechism teachers but I would really like to see real Dogmatic Theologians with post graduate degrees answering questions on the net. Instead there are now 1500 blogs unmonitored by any Vatican official and that will one day call for Vatican involvement.